Just having some thinky thoughts

[hils]

So, I was reading an essay about Inara last night and mention was made of the one time she takes a female client during Firefly. I started thinking about gay characters in the Jossverse.

Willow and Tara (correct me if I'm wrong) have been praised as being one of the most believeable gay couples on TV and of course Joss is praised with his feminist empowerment of female characters.

I started to think. So far we have had lesbian scenes with Willow and Tara, Willow and Kennedy, Inara and her client, and Buffy and Satsu.

Where are the male gay scenes?

It's struck me that there are few male gay characters in the Jossverse. Larry of course was there, but he was very much a background character and died at the end of Season 3. I think most people are now of the opinion that Andrew is gay but I don't recall it ever being stated in canon.

Andrew is very much a source of ridicule in the 'verse. He's comic relief. There is the obvious implied things between Spike and Angel, and Spike and Xander to a lesser extent, but I'm talking about actual relationships here. I could add Buffy/Faith and others to the list above if we're just talking about implied stuff.

I don't know about anyone else (and this isn't just because I'm a slasher) but I would love to see a believeable and true male gay relationship in Joss's universe.

And the moment it seems to me that he is just fulfilling every males obsession with lesbians.

Thoughts? Comments? I'm waiting for someone to point out a character or relationship that I've forgotten. LOL!

Comments

[salymander.livejournal.com]

I've thought this for some time, so you're definitely not alone. In fact gay men tend to be ridiculed a lot by Joss and crew.

Although I would say that Joss' use of lesbianism is not always complimentary or realistic either. Buffy/Satsu is a very common plot device to get extra readership. (I'm not against experimenting in theory, but in literature it tends to be used merely as an attention grabber and women's sexuality is always shown as more fluid than men's.) Further, Tara's death is an old trope that lesbians always die, which Joss should have been a little more sympathetic to. Character death is important, but not when it comes to hurtful stereotypes. And so far, in the comics, the only real lesbian, Willow, hasn't been allowed any action. She's back to seemingly chaste/virginal status.

I love Joss' narrative creativity, but his ideas on feminism, gender, and sexuality all need a little work.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Oh, good, I'm so glad it's not just me

I'm just amazed I've only just noticed

[salymander.livejournal.com]

I think it's pretty easy to miss, because the he writes with such flair that you get carried away with the fun. It's also easy, at least for me, because I'm not gay and so I'm not missing a solid representation of my identity.

I honestly didn't notice how unfeminist and almost backward a lot of Joss' work is until recently when I began studying feminism more. Again, I think Joss is a very strong writer. But he writes using a lot of racial and gender stereotypes which only become evident, at least to me, after MUCH rewatching. It's often pretty subtle.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I must admit I've never really noticed before

[muck-a-luck.livejournal.com]

And the moment it seems to me that he is just fulfilling every males obsession with lesbians.

I think you have a point here. Gay women are much less threatening to almost everyone than gay men, it seems to me, and seem to be more widely accepted in scriptwriting than gay male characters.

We should give Mr. Whedon credit, though, for trying to write believable relationships, even if the lesbians are lipstick, and particularly Inara and her client are quite the male fantasy. There's reasons for the quote about Jane being in his bunk, ya know?

So give him credit where it's due, and ask him to please push his own comfort zone a little and lend his talent to a real gay male couple.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, I totally agree he has done good things that other scriptwriters wouldn't have touched. I would just like to see him push his boundries, as you say

[ladydreamer.livejournal.com]

At the end of Angel, Spike admits that he and Angel have been intimate. Sadly, one line at the end doesn't make a relationship that we can see. If he went back and had someone do a comic fleshing out their relationship, it would be good.

Willow and Tara were good for what they were and people do praise them, but they were really very idealized, fluffy love. Don't get me wrong, I love them, but come S6 Willow has a disturbing need to control Tara that borders (and maybe crosses the line sometimes) on non-con, and that includes the spells she casts on Tara's mind. So, it has been praised, but MORE and BETTER now, okay writers?

I do love Joss's work, but I agree that I'd like for him to continue thinking on these issues, instead of assuming that he's 'got it,' you know? Frankly, I'd like to see more of both, but let's be honest here. Gay male relationships get a lot more attention than lesbians of any kind, although both are often played for laughs/horror (especially gender variaion), and I'll take anything non-heteronormative that I can get.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is the thing. The odd line here or there implying a male gay relationship isn't the same thing. And these lines are usually done as a joke rather than anything serious.

I think Willow controlling Tara in S6 was supposed to be a bad thing, something that would drive them to break up and put Willow on the dark path. But, yeah, that's not something that should be praised. I supposed a 'realistic' gay relationship can only go so far when the girls in question are both witches. LOL!

And I love Joss's work too, I just think he could do more

[drusplace.livejournal.com]

I think in general Lesbian relationships are "safer" in television than gay male relationships. The first same sex kiss in North American tv was on All My Children and again it was two women. I'm not sure Joss would have even be allowed to have had say, Xander be gay with a male partner that was on as much as Tara was for Willow.

And Joss tends to be more comfortable with women characters, so it doesn't surprise me that it is pretty much all female/female. And if we are going for implied, there is Darla/Dru as well.

And at least Joss did have the guts to actually have a lesbian couple on his show. So many won't.

OH! And I did enjoy Torchwood. Captain John/Captain Jack was WONDERFUL, but the show itself was also enjoyable.

[hils.livejournal.com]

YAY! Watch more Torchwood

In fact, Joss should watch Torchwood. On that show anything goes. There m/m, f/f and m/f aplenty. LOL!

[drusplace.livejournal.com]

Actually I think Joss does watch Torchwood! Yeah I liked it. It was good. I need to get to know the characters more though.

And I wonder if Torchwood can be like that because generally you all over there tend to be less stuffy about that kind of thing on tv? Or maybe that is just a generalisation we have here. Most Canadian tv is pretty conservative as well. Except for Degrassi which is for teenagers. And I think our CBC actually gives money to produce Torchwood. Hmmmmm.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Hehe! I think we probably are a bit less bothered about stuff like that. Queer as Folk aired about 10 years ago over here and our early evening soap operas have gay relationships in them now too. It's awesome. You can see boykissing at 6pm *g*

[drusplace.livejournal.com]

And QAF seems to have had a larger following there rather than here.

One thought I had about Joss et al. I mean, the guy isn't perfect (love him though I do), I sometimes think a small portion of the feminist camp comes down harder on him then they should. Especially over the character of Inara. WHile that society in Firefly condones, promotes and educates the "Companions", I am quite sure that Joss wasn't saying that HE condones that sort of commercialism of sex. I think his actual opinion, from what I've read, is more like Captain Mal's.

The good thing about Joss' work, even when he gets the female side of things wrong, is that at least he gets us talking about the issues in our society. Most shows don't create that form of dialogue.

Wow this is pretty deep for a Tuesday.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Hee!

If you can get hold of it I really recommend Finding Serenity. The essay I read about Inara last night was fascinating. It was written by a sex therapist and goes through the whole history of the sex industry back as far as it goes (which is a long way)

You might even be able to find the essay online.

It's called Whores and Goddesses by Dr Joy Davidson

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

Did give money, which is why it's now on Space.

[drusplace.livejournal.com]

I defer to the expert. ;) And I kind of wondered why it was on Space!

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I've thought about this quite a bit. I think Larry does become quite a positive character, and a better person after he comes out. It does bother me that Andrew seems to be an object of derision though I think he would be gay or straight. Having the two women turn up as his 'dates' on Angel might be a way to defuse that idea that he's funny because he's gay, but I found it pretty silly. I'm just assuming the two girls were lesbians taking him out to a gay club.

I'm hoping he's explore more on Dollhouse.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Hee! I liked that idea in Queen of the Slayers where it was all just an act set up by Giles to put Angel and Spike off Buffy's scent

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Totally agreed, just playing up to the fanboys, and his own ideas

[hils.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what about the fangirls damnit!

[richandme.livejournal.com]

The rumour was always that he didn't decide until season 4 whether it would be Willow or Xander who'd come out... and a lot of seasons 1-3 set it up so it could be either of them. (Willow-doppleganger and Xander-Larry, mainly).

I'd glad it was Willow over Xander. Primarily because it would almost have been cliched to have the one core young male character being gay in a show about strong women.

Also [shrug] maybe he's never done it because he wouldn't do it well. Which is fair and kudos to him.

Plus, it's not gay men he takes the piss out of, it's more men in general when it comes to sex - look at Jayne's attitude to sex ("I'll be in my bunk."), Simon's, Mal's, Angel's and Xander's issues with intimacy... etc. The only male character who had a 'normal' attitude towards sex and relationships left and got married to someone less crazy (that'd be Riley).

[richandme.livejournal.com]

Oh, and everyone hated him.

[hils.livejournal.com]

They sure did! He's called Captain Cardboard for a reason. LOL!

[hils.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's a valid point. I read an essay last night that pretty much said everything you've just said

In Joss's head men are crap and women are awesome. LOL!

[innae.livejournal.com]

Just my two cents --

I think that Joss is American, and well, we just have issues with the male/male thing -- seriously. I think we are getting better, but it certainly isn't mainstream on TV, or in our movies either -- BrokeBack was one of the first that explored that issue.

And, as for Queer as Folk, if I remember right it was on one of the premium cable channels, meaning you had to pay EVEN more than usual to see it.

Things are getting better, and perhaps as we (Americans) start accepting diversity a bit more Joss will move with the trends.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and Brokeback was made by a Chinese guy. LOL!

I just think it's weird that lesbianism seems to be more acceptable than gay men. It doesn't make any sense to me. Surely if one is ok to show on TV then the other should be too

[innae.livejournal.com]

you would think....

[selinamoonfire.livejournal.com]

I'm probably going to get rotten fruit thrown at me for this...Oh well!

Okay, I do like many of Joss' projects. I enjoy Firefly and the early seasons of Buffy. But I don't see him as empowering women and why it seems like everyone female should be praising him for making 'us' seem more powerful.

Buffy is a powerful woman, but to me, she turned mean. I know she had a hard life and blah blah blah, but she was hurtful to the people that cared about her. Why does a powerful woman have to be nasty? Can't you be a superhero, female, and not be snotty?

I don't see Willow as a lesbian; I see her as bi. She was with Oz, she crushed on Xander. She was with Tara and Kennedy. To me, she's bi. But lesbianism gets better ratings and better PR. I really believe Buffy's experimentation was a ratings ploy. Dark Horse admitted that the series was lagging in sales, then suddenly, Buffy has a fling with a Slayerette. Sounds odd to me.

Joss has said that Spike/Angel is canon (though I can't honestly picture it because I think they'd annoy each other until one of them staked the other) but that's about it for m/m relationships.

I was kinda hoping that Xander might turn out to be bi, just for some equality. Really, if Joss is into all this equality then some male character should be bi or gay. But, if he does it, then the comic sales will drop because we all know, women don't buy comics *rolls my eyes* Obviously, those people need to go to a con and see how many women are there.

Really, I don't see why Joss is the wonder of modern writing. Many people on my flist seem annoyed with both the Angel and Buffy comics. Also, everyone was griping at the con about his run at Marvel. *shrugs* I'm wondering if he really is that great or he's a good writer that happened to be at the right place at the right time. (Though I loved Dr Horrible...until the end. Thanks Joss!)

[hils.livejournal.com]

Joss can say Angel/Spike is canon as much as he likes. We still haven't seen it on screen or on page. Little implied jokes about their past does not a relationship make.

I quite liked Joss's X-Men stuff, until the end. That seems to be the way with him